Talk:Ngô Đình Thục

Charles Grestl

Thread retitled from "Untitled".

Archbishop Thuc's arrival to the United States was predicted in a letter written to Pope John XXIII in 1961. Utica, NY. mystic Charles Grestl wrote the letter after receiving no reply from either the Vatican or Cardinal Spellman of New York City.

In 1947, Grestl had several visions of Christ carving angels out of wood and received a message to be given to the "Cardinal". The message from Christ said that "... the priests represent me on the altar and I am always waiting."

This message, couple with references "my foster father's house," "boys work," and the cities of Rochester and New York seem to indicate the arrival of Archbishop Thuc in Rochester, NY; his final trip to New York city, and the coming of a NEW Clergy to replace the clergy that have fallen away from the Catholic Faith.

We discussed these and the biblical and theological issues of Charles Grestl's letter in our book, The Man Who Saw Jesus. Thank you, Bishop L. Poccia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.52.238.55 (talk) 14:27, 19 September, 2003 (UTC)

A book with that title, The Man Who Saw Jesus, is not found in WorldCat and a search for "The Man Who Saw Jesus" Grestl yields ONE other site besides this Wikipedia talkpage and its copies. It is most certainly not a reliable WP:SOURCE. A search for "Charles Grestl" yields unremarkable apparition and pareidolia stories — nothing notable or reliable. This topic should just be archived and forgotten. –BoBoMisiu (talk) 15:42, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

Last Catholic Bishops in Vietnam??

What does mean the sentence: Thục was the principal consecrator of Bishops Michel Nguyên Khác Ngu (1909-2009) and Antoine Nguyên Van Thien (born 1906), the last Roman Catholic bishop in Vietnam.[1]?? It is a nonsence. Probably, they were the last Bishops in V. consecrated in Tridentine Ritus but, as I hope, these pages are Wikipedia, not Tradypedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.176.160.206 (talk) 14:34, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

This was the result of an edit that changed the sentence from "Thục was the principal consecrator of Bishops Antoine Nguyên Van Thien (born 1906) and Michel Nguyên Khác Ngu (born 1909), who are currently the oldest still living Roman Catholic bishops in Vietnam." to "Thục was the principal consecrator of Bishops Antoine Nguyên Van Thien (1906-2009) and Michel Nguyên Khác Ngu (born 1909), the last Roman Catholic bishop in Vietnam." They were not the last Catholic bishops in Vietnam (see "Living Bishops of Vietnam" on catholic-hierarchy.org). —BoBoMisiu (talk) 16:48, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

surname

Inasfar as the archbishop's brothers' names all began with Ngô, it is reasonable to infer that Ngô was the family-name, not Thuc. Indeed, it is the tradition in the east for the surname to come first. A better rendition of his full name would be with his Christian names first, since such names customarily precede the surname.

You are right and I did edit about Vietnamese name. But did you note that his nephew, François-Xavier Cardinal Nguyên Van Thuán, are not bear the family name of Ngô. The reason is that Cardinal Thuan is the son of Thuc's sister, so Thuan bear the family name from his father, and not from family Ngô. —Dieu2005 14:28, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

It's thus wrong to talk about Thuc bishops. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.151.103.133 (talk) 14:41, 16 August 2016 (UTC)

No, it is not wrong, Vietnamese custom is to refer to people by their given name (Vietnamese name), i.e. Thục. –BoBoMisiu (talk) 14:50, 16 August 2016 (UTC)

communion with Rome

The Clemente Domínguez y Gómez article claims that Peter Martin Ngo-Dinh-Thuc was excommunicated for valid but unlawful ordinations, then accepted back into the church, and then excommunicated a second time. But this article makes no mention of reacceptance or a second excommunication. Which article is correct? — Gwalla | Talk 22:50, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Verifiability

I gave a verifiable source to the corrections I made. Whether you agree/disagree about the factual accuracy of the source is a matter of opinion – one which the individual reader should be allowed to form of their own. I have no axe to grind – if you can disprove the source, I will remove without contestation.

The reference to des Lauriers however, is not sourced. If you cannot provide a verifiable source for this, it does not belong. —Donalcone 19:01, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

To Smith2006 - the one committing vandalism here is you. You remove properly sourced material and/or substitute your opinion in its place. Please familarize yourselves with the rules of editing on this site before you continue to make bad ones. Thanks. —Donalcone 18:49, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Role in Ngo regime

The long-term importance of Ngo Dinh Thuc to history, rather than the Church, may have its genesis in the 1926-1927 crossing of his path, in Rome, with the path of fellow-resident Francis Spellman. It was likely their long term acquaintance that swung open the door of Maryknoll for Ngo Dinh Diem in 1950 and kept it open almost three years. Either nobody knows, or nobody will tell, exactly what Diem did there all that time. Further, it is even more UN-likely that Diem stayed at Maryknoll without the express permission of Pius XII.

Regardless, what is not a matter of speculation is the legitimizing role played by Bishop Thuc in the arrogance, cupidity and cruelty of the Ngo Regime - symbolized for many by the 1963 reference of Mme. Nhu to "monk barbeques". Two interesting witnesses are Edward Lansdale - see "In the Midst of Wars" - and Thich Nhat Hanh -see "Lotus in a Sea of Fire". —Trylon 23:06, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

"Thuc's brother, Ngô Ðình Khôi, was buried alive because of his refusal to become a minister in the first communist government. Thuc's three other brothers, Ngô Đình Diệm, president of South Vietnam, Ngô Đình Nhu and Ngô Đình Can, his close collaborators, were all assassinated. President Diệm was assassinated on November 1, 1963."

The above paragraph gives the reader the impression that Ngô Đình Diệm, Ngô Đình Nhu and Ngô Đình Can were killed by the communists. These three Ngô brothers were killed during or as result of a coup by their own military forces. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Quietaustralian (talk • contribs) 13:50, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Concecration Rite?

Did Thuc use the pre-concilar or the post-concilar rubrics when he concecrated the bishops? Becuase it appears that Thuc had no religious objections to the Novus Ordo, he only chose sedevacantism because of the crisis within the Church. If he did used the post-conciliar rubrics, then the whole Thuc line could be in-vaild (by a Traditionalist perspective). —75.3.73.19 22:19, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Claims of "Mgr. Barthe"

These claims may not be posted inside the article in large CAPS constantly, as there is no source provided, and the opinion of Barthe is contrary to that of the official Vatican position. Also, there is no reason to believe that a man who could write Latin and preach sermons all over the world, was unable to confer a sacrament validly due to ALLEGED "mental illness". If Archbishop Thuc could validly celebrate Mass, and he could and observed the rites totally, he could also validly ordain and consecrate, as nothing more special is required. Those claiming otherwise, do not understand Roman Catholic sacramentology and theology. They seem to deny the validity of the Episcopal Consecrations by Mons. Thuc, just because they deem them to be imprudent, undesirable, illicit or criminal. That may be true all, but invalidity is something else that licitity or illicitity. Thuc clearly made imprudent decisions, e.g. at Palmar de Troya, but archbishop Thuc was not insane and unable to say Mass validly. Imprudent popes and bishops conferred sacraments validly. Licitity is something else than validity. —Smith2006 (talk) 09:43, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Article name

A search of Google Books and Scholar seem to show that Pierre Martin Ngo Dinh Thuc is more common than Pierre Martin Ngô Đình Thục (BOOKS 23 on -Pierre-Martin-Ngô-Đình-Thục Pierre-Martin-Ngo-Dinh-Thuc Pierre-Martin-Ngô-Đình-Thục -Pierre-Martin-Ngo-Dinh-Thuc - did not match any documents. SCHOLAR 147 for -Pierre-Martin-Ngô-Đình-Thục Pierre-Martin-Ngo-Dinh-Thuc, 79 for Pierre-Martin-Ngô-Đình-Thục -Pierre-Martin-Ngo-Dinh-Thuc). On that evidence unless someone can show that it is faulty the article Pierre Martin Ngô Đình Thục should be moved to Pierre Martin Ngo Dinh Thuc following the WP:NC policy and the WP:UE guideline. —Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 09:25, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

"Ngo Dinh Thuc" gets 2,030 results on Google Books. "Pierre Martin Ngo Dinh Thuc" gets 281. Vietnamese Catholics all have Christian names, but it is quite unusual to see the Christian and Vietnamese names stuck together like this. —Kauffner (talk) 12:39, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

Ngo Dinh Khoi

The following discussion is marked as answered (Ngô Đình Khôi was the eldest Ngô brother). If you have a new comment, place it just below the box.

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Neil Sheehan, in Bright Shining Lie, says that N.D. Khoi was Pres. Diem's oldest brother and that he was killed by the Viet Minh sometime in late 1945, early 1946. Is Sheehan mistaken, or why does N.D. Khoi redirect here, to a different brother?? —Terry J. Carter (talk) 04:34, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

Ngo Dinh Khoi was the eldest Ngo brother. Sheehan's info is correct. As no article exists for Khoi someone redirected his name to Thuc. I re-redirected it to his father (Ngo Dinh Kha)'s article as the most appropriate holding place until and unless an article on Khoi is created. Thanks for observing. —Quis separabit? 13:54, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

Lefebvre consecration by Thuc

Moved: was at Talk:Episcopi vagantes

Savez-vous que Mgr Lefebvre a été consacré en 1976 par Mgr Thuc, j'en ai les preuves (lettres de Mgr Lefebvre à Mgr Thuc).
–P. Gérard. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.12.20.40 (talk) 21:51, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

Google translation of above contribution by 80.12.20.40: "Did you know that Archbishop Lefebvre was consecrated in 1976 by Bishop Thuc, I have proof" (letters of Lefebvre to Thuc). –Preceding translation added by BoBoMisiu (talk) 18:01, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

Lefebvre was consecrated bishop in 1947, according to his article. He founded the SSPX in 1970. How could he have been consecrated by Thuc in 1976? Scolaire (talk) 09:41, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

I agree. In my opinion, it's a dubious statement. —BoBoMisiu (talk) 16:45, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

French language posts

French language posts by unsigned IP addresses with some rough translation (use Engllsh, please)
See original unrevised version prior to WP:REFACTOR
Pourquoi toujours écrire des contres vérités? Savez-vous qu'il y a des évêques consacrés directement par Feu Mgr Thục, la réunion de ces évêque aura lieu à La Ferté-Gaucher du 4 au 8 Septembre.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.249.236.129 (talk) 03:21, 28 August, 2006 (UTC) Translation: Why always write untruths? Do you know that there were bishops directly consecrated by the late Mgr Thục, the reunion of these bishops will take place at La Ferté-Gaucher from 4 to 8 September [2006]. Scolaire (talk) 21:03, 6 July 2014 (UTC) Je suis Monseigneur Roux, je ne prends pas le nom d'un autre pour dire que vous êtes un beau menteur, avez-vous connu Mgr Thục, moi oui... Avez-vous ses archives? moi oui... J'ai été sacré avec Mgr Boni Luigi le 18 Avril 1982 à Loano Italie, et je proclame que Mgr n'était pas Sedévangantiste, et je n'ai pas voulu consacré des Gilles P et Antoine C, avant pour eux j'étais un bon évêque et devant mon refus... Je ne suis plus évêque... Dieu est juge.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.249.235.230 (talk) 03:08, 29 August, 2006 (UTC) Translation: I am Monseigneur Roux, I do not take the name of another to say that you are a big liar. Do you know Mgr Thục? I do. Do you have his archives? I do. I was consecrated with Mgr Boni Luigi on 18 April 1982 at Loano, Italy, and I proclaim that Mgr was not a Sedevangantist [sic], and I did not wish consecrated of Gilles P and Antoine C, before that for them I was a good bishop and in front of my refusal... I am no longer bishop. God is the judge. Scolaire (talk) 21:03, 6 July 2014 (UTC) Monsieur, Pourquoi dire et insister à dire des contre vérités... Savez-vous pourquoi tant d'attaques contre Mgr Roux? Savez-vous pourquoi Mgr Seiwert est réconcilier avec Rome.... Alors avant de vous dire spécialiste en histoire religieuse... Vous êtes surtout spécialiste en ragots et mensonges. Frère Mathieu. Sécrétaire. Mr., Why say and to insist on saying the against truths... Do you know why so many attacks against Mgr Roux? Know yourselves why Mgr Seiwert reconcile with Rome.... Then before telling you specialist in religious history... You are especially specialist in gossips and lies. Brother Mathieu. Secretary.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.249.237.248 (talk) 00:36, 01 September, 2006 (UTC) Je suis surpris de voir votre mauvaise foi... Mais si vous voulez détruire Notre superieur, libre à vous... Mais attention demain, la vie est une roue qui tourne... Oui nous sommes plusieurs témoins au sacre tant de Mgr Roux que de Mgr Boni... A Loano en 1982, vous vous n'y étiez pas... Mais peut-être êtes vous un de ceux que Notre superieur à mis à la porte pour moeurs ou autres... Je prie pour vous. Frère Mathieur O.MR.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.9.131.198 (talk) 17:53, 05 September, 2006 (UTC) Translation: I am surprised to see your bad faith. But if you wish to destroy our superior, it's up to you. But beware tomorrow: life is a wheel that turns. Yes we are several witnesses at the sacrament such as Mgr Roux and Mgr Boni. At Loano in 1982, you were not there. But perhaps you are one of those whom our superior showed the door for some customs or other. I pray for you. Brother Mathieu O.MR. Scolaire (talk) 21:03, 6 July 2014 (UTC) J'ai ce jour demandé à Mtre Viala Avocat à Paris de porter plainte pour diffamation contre le personnage qui n'a pas le courage de signer son nom, mais aujourd'hui nous pouvons le savoir... car le mensonge ne peut ne paxrester impuni. Mgr Jean-Gérard Roux.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.249.235.98 (talk) 12:51, 07 September, 2006 (UTC) Translation: I have today [7 September 2006] asked Master Viala, lawyer, of Paris, to bring a complaint for defamation against the person who has not the courage to sign his name, but today we may know it. Because this lie cannot remain unpunished. Scolaire (talk) 21:03, 6 July 2014 (UTC) J'étais à Loano le 18 avril 1982... Je puis le jurer.. Mgr Boni et Mgr Roux ont été sacré par Mgr Thục... Par ailleurs il y avait d'autres témoins, je ne souviens de Mr P Riu, Mr W Ardisson, Md A Faugére et d'autre, puis le livre de présence de la pension Millone ou est descendu Mgr Thục peut l'attester... Voir avec la questura de Savone... Que de mensonges... Moi je signe de mon nom pourquoi pas le menteur....— Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.249.235.98 (talk) 12:55, 07 September, 2006 (UTC) Translation: I was at Loano on 18 April 1982. I can swear it. Mgr Boni and Mgr Roux were consecrated by Mgr Thục. In addition there were other witnesses, I remember Mr. P. Riu, Mr. W. Ardisson, Mme. A. Faugère and others, then the register of the Millone pension where Mgr Thục went down can attest. See also the police headquarters of Savona. What lies! Me, I sign my name because I am not a liar. Scolaire (talk) 21:03, 6 July 2014 (UTC) Vous pouvez vérifier mes dires, mais le 18 avril 1982, j'étais bien présente à Loano, je puis vous dire que Mgr Thục est venu à Loano, pour fuire l'Abbé Barbara, il est arrivé à Nice le Mardi après Paques et non en mai... Il est allé voir l'Abbé Delmasure à Cannes, puis un docteur à Antibes dont je ne me souviens pas du nom, puis Mr Ardisson l'a conduit à Loano et non à Toulon, car Mr l'Abbé Barbara voulait être sacré par Mgr Thục... J'ai vecu tous cela, j'étais au service de Mgr Boni.... Qui lui aussi était sur l'annu Pontifical... Et excommunier par Rome comme Mgr Roux... Je puis le jurer sur la Bible. Louise Littieri. Je puis vous donner mon adresse.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.249.237.244 (talk) 01:57, 17 September, 2006 (UTC) J'ai connu Mgr Roux en 1970 durant son service militaire..., j'ai été son père spirituel, j'ai été présent pour son ordination en 1977, et attristé de son sacre fait par Mgr Thục à Loano en 1982, j'ai été chargé par Don Marie Bernard de Terris, de récupérer Gérard (Mgr Roux, j'ai quitté mon abbaye avec la permission de mon Abbé Dom René, j'ai fait avec le Père Daumas et Mgr Abelé en 1985, toutes les démarches pour que Mgr Roux soit relevés de son excommunication, de début février 1985 au 20 décembre 1985, j'étais avec lui, soit à Ganagobie, soit à Digne ou à Antibes... Puis il a voulu retourner vers la tradition... Mais je puis attester qu'il a été ordonné au titre d'une congrégation catholique et non vacant (Fraternité de la Charité) à Nice et qu'il a été sacré pour Mgr P.M. Ngo-Dinh-Thục, chose qui m'a fait beaucoup de peine. Je ne sais pas commen,t il a pu etre ordonné par laborie ou autre, lorsqu'il était avec moi... Et je n'aurais rien vu ni su???? P. Aereld. o.c.s.o.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.249.235.106 (talk) 11:10, 25 September, 2006 (UTC) [Je m'appelle Philipe RIU, je suis né en 1955 à Nice chemin de La Bornala. J'ai très très bien connu Mgr Roux, que vous traînez dans la boue, comme des pauvre type qui non pas le courage de dire et de signer leur nom. L'histoire du Docteur Heller est une belle blague, Ce « Brave Docteur » a forcer Mgr Thục que j'ai bien connu chez Mr l'Abbé Delmasure ou dans son petit deux pièces de Toulon... L'avez-vous connu à cette époque? J'en doute... Beau menteur , Beau parleur... Il n'avait pour lui venir en aide qu'une famille Norant qui d'ailleurs recevait à l'époque de Mgr Boni et Mgr Roux le montant du loyer... le saviez-vous? J'ai été très prêt de Mgr Roux du Padre, tant à Nice ou avec l'Abbé Délisade il a fait un bon boulot.. Puis à Antibes, sa maison été toujours ouverte, comme encore aujourd'hui. Mais qu'elle est la blague d'Heller.... Il a voulu faire sacré par Mgr Roux, et plusieurs personnes de Munich pourront vous le dire Marnodé Mgr n'a pas voulu, grand bien lui a pris, puisque ce « monsieur était pédophileé... Mais il fallait d'Heller trouve une solution. Mgr Thục est arrivé à Nice en Avion le Mardi après Päques sans aucune affaire, Heller voulant garder Mgr Thục.... Mgr Thục était malade, nous l'avons apporter chez un médecin d'Antibes Elbas ou Albas, je ne n'en souvient plus, puis chez Mr l'Abbé Delmassure qui nous a parler de la réaction de l'Abbé Barbara... J'ai pris beaucoup de note disant un jour peut-être tu pourra faire une livre. Mr Ardisson William Officier de Police Judiciaire, Mr Faugere, et Mgr Thục dans la voiture R6 de Mr Ardisson, l'Abbé Balzanno Michel, vicaire au Port à Nice, Mr Cuny et Moi-même dans la 2 CV de Mgr Roux, avons pris la route pour Loano.. Et le Sacre a belle et bien eu lieu le 18 Avril 1982, Mr Ardisson a reconduit Mgr Thục à Nice pour faire légaliser la signature de Mgr Thục par la police nationale, par le Consulat Général d'Italie puis inscription aux impôts.... J'ai conduit moi-même Padre Gérard au foyer de charité pour voir Mgr Gilles Barthe, je n'ai pas assisté à leur discussion... Mais plus de mensonge d'un Gilles Pom ou d' Chat qui sont plus des courtisanes que des ecclésiastiques. Aujourd'hui Mgr à eu une belle opération au cœur, et moi comme tous ses amis pleurons, car il a un cœur gros comme la porte d'Aix.pas vous et vpotre langue, le mal que vous avez fait, vous allez le payer tres cher, car Dieu est JUGE?. Je suis aujourd'hui marié, avec des enfants, je jure sur leur tête que Mgr Roux est Evêque de Mgr Thục. Mgr Abele en d'ailleur reçu de Mgr Roux en 1985 lorsque celui-ci a voulu aller vers les modernistes donné sa crosse, que nous lui avions fait cadeau... Et vous vous protegez les menteurs, les pécheurs publics et autres plutôt que de dire la simple vérité. Mais je vais rechercher même s'il y a presque 25 ans les témoins... lang] Error: {{Lang}}: invalid parameter: |3= (help)— Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.249.236.205 (talk) 15:51, 07 October, 2006 (UTC) Je ne puis que remercier mon cher Père Aereld, Phil et Louise, mais je puis dire aussi: Mgr Jean-Gérard Roux Pourquoi ne pas croire, je vous conseille de relire: à la suite de Saint Paul: "nous travaillons avec beaucoup de peines de nos propres mains; on nous maudit, et nous bénissons; on nous persécute, et nous le souffrons; on nous dit des injures, et nous répondons par des prières; nous sommes regardés comme l'ordure du monde, rejetés de tous." Et Mgr Roux dit toujours en plus: "Mais HEUREUX car cela est à cause de mon Amour pour Dieu et pour sa plus grande gloire ainsi que de mon Amour pour l'Eglise, ma Mère." Les ingrats et médisants qui oubliant l'aide que nous leur avons apportée nous démontrent que nous sommes dans le vrai. Ceux qui proclament que je n'ai pas été sacré par Feu Mgr Thục je leur dis un grand merci, ils m'aident dans mon élévation vers Dieu, par le chemin de la patience, du pardon et de l'amour. Je prie pour eux, car sans le savoir( j'espère), il font l'œuvre du Diable Pax Tecum. +Jean-Gérard Roux Epis;Missi.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.249.234.143 (talk) 11:29, 12 October, 2006 (UTC) Je ne puis laisser dire des mensonges, même si je ne suis pas d'accord avec la position de l'Evêque Roux, il a vraiment été consacré par Mgr Thục le 18 avril 1982 à Loano en Italie, j'ai demandé en 1985 la relève de son excommunication... Je sais pourquoi Chadwick a écris contre lui... Son dossier est à la disposition de tous auprès du Christ-Roi... Me then to let tell some lies, even though I don't agree with the position of the bishop Roux, he/it has been dedicated indeed by Mgr Thục April 18, 1982 in Loano in Italy, I asked in 1985 the relief of his/her/its excommunication... I know why Chadwick has write against him His/her/its file is at the disposal of all by the Christ-King... + Ed Abele, epis.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.249.235.63 (talk) 10:20, 20 January, 2007 (UTC) You are violating the Wikipedia rules by participating when you don't have sufficient command of the English language. That is why there is a http://fr.wikipedia.org so that you do so in French. There is a Thục article there also. Furthermore, a Roux controversy belongs in the article on Roux. It is not a Thục controversy. I moved it over there. Lastly, when you revert a change you have to make sure you give a clear reason and also that you don't erase all the changes that were made. Vous violez les règles de Wikipédia par la participation quand vous n'avez pas des connaissances suffisantes en anglais. C'est pourquoi il y a des http://fr.wikipedia.org de sorte que vous fassiez ainsi en français. Il y a un article de Thục là également. En outre, une polémique d'Roux appartient dans l'article sur des Roux. Ce n'est pas une polémique de Thục. Je l'ai déplacé 2la-bas. Pour finir, quand vous retournez un changement vous devez vous assurer que vous élasticité une raison claire et également cela vous n'effacez pas tous les changements qui ont été faits. —Diligens 18:12, 20 January 2007 (UTC) Sujet de Chadwick, qui diffame Mgr Roux... Heureusement que Mgr Roux ne la pas consacré, il s'est marié en France a eu 2 enfants, puis est parti de France avec les 2 enfants... Il est recherche activement par la police.... Lorsque Mgr Roux est toujours dans sa communauté depuis 30 ans.... A vous de juger....— Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.249.237.13 (talk) 11:49, 10 June, 2007 (UTC)

The above French language discussion, in this section, was WP:REFACTORed from a fragmented discussion on this talk page. It is about purported consecrations of Jean-Gérard Roux and Luigi Boni, on 18 April 1982, in Loano, Italy, by Thục. The posts read like rambling Internet forum posts. A search for "Jean Gérard Roux" Thuc, Roux Thuc and "Luigi Boni" Thuc yields several interesting results including Roux's 2005 incarceration for forgery and fraud.. Articles by Anthony Chadwick, on two personal websites, describe the case and conclude that there is no reliable evidence that these consecrations attributed to Thục actually took place. As both are personal websites, they do not meet WP:BLPSPS guidelines. These claims should be debunked in a footnote in the article, or maybe in the episcopi vagantes article, using WP:RELIABLE sources (most likely French language sources). Previously, content about Roux was added in 2006 and repeatedly removed.

References

—BoBoMisiu (talk) 20:56, 2 July 2014 (UTC), modified 22:39, 5 July 2014 (UTC)

From what I can see it is not a discussion as such, but a single user, taking a variety of names including Fr. Aereld, Jean Gerard Roux and Louise Littieri, disputing the section on Roux in the version that you linked to above. There was a lot of edit-warring on that section at that time, with a dynamic IP being repeatedly reverted after adding similar diatribes into the article. Scolaire (talk) 21:29, 6 July 2014 (UTC)

Pontifical Powers

Scolaire, you asked the question in your edit summary about papal powers, wanting to know what it means. Here is a good link for you: https://holyrosarychapel.vpweb.com/ARCHBISHOP-THUC.html

As well, this makes a good case for being a reliable source as there is a photo-copy of the motu proprio by Pius XI. Ngô Đình Thục publicly consecrated priests without explicit papal mandate, because he knew what powers the pope gave to him. Diligens (talk) 14:41, 24 February 2019 (UTC)Diligens

That looks an extremely dubious source to me. I suggest you go to the Reliable sources noticeboard and ask if it would be a reliable source. If they say yes, then by all means restore the content. But please explain what "invested with papal powers" means. A hyperlink is not an explanation, and readers of an encyclopaedia need to have things explained to them in plain English. Scolaire (talk) 23:02, 24 February 2019 (UTC)

The hyperlink itself is not an explanation, but the content at the target of that link does explain. WP asks that discussion be started here before asking for help. Why do you consider it "extremely dubious" source? You have the photocopy of the papal document in Latin. It is translated on that page. A document by a pope is within the tops of reliable. The motu proprio is designed as such for the whole world of Catholics because an Archbishop receiving it by name every trusts will reliably exercise whatever he knows it entails. Papal powers obviously means powers the pope normally reserves for himself. One doesn't have to know the details to understand what it means. If needed, another link can be giving to give further details. Now, please give some explanation on why you think it is a dubious source. Thanks. Diligens (talk) 22:30, 25 February 2019 (UTC)Diligens

I think it is a dubious source because it is a typical "traditionalist Catholic" web page, with lots of bolding, red ink and photos, and very little of real substance. If you actually read WP:RS, especially WP:QUESTIONABLE and WP:RSSELF, you will understand what I am saying. As to your motu proprio, it is translated on that web page as "whom we invest with all the necessary powers, for purposes known to us." It does not say "whom we invest with papal powers" or "whom we invest with all the powers we normally reserve for ourselves." So we're back to how reliable the page is for the purposes of interpreting that document. I say it is not reliable at all. You would save yourself a great deal of trouble if you just did what I suggested: go to the Reliable sources noticeboard and ask if it would be a reliable source. Scolaire (talk) 13:08, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

Your "dubious source because" really shows a bias on your part when one looks at your experiential reason. As well, you say "save yourself a great deal of trouble", but really what you are doing is trying to save yourself the "trouble" of discussing this, but Wikipedia doesn't consider that a trouble; WP recommends it BEFORE going to ask for help. Which is what I am doing here. Now, I want to ask you about the link I gave you, and the quote there from Fr. Lesourd. Apparently, you consider it not reliable because it wasn't sourced, which is fair enough, but I wish you stated it. Now I am going to give you the reference about that quote to help you: "Entre Rome et Moscou: Le jésuite clandestin, Mgr Michel d'Herbigny". This is from 1976 and can be purchased on Amazon. The priest who wrote it gave testimony to the public on what he heard from the pope about what the motu proprio meant. Do you accept that a reliable source, and if not, WHY not? Diligens (talk) 23:59, 26 February 2019 (UTC)Diligens

I am happy to take the trouble do discuss this, at least as long as it doesn't start going round in circles. Since you accept that the source you gave was not reliable per WP:RS, there is no need to go to the RSN, so that's fine. Now, your book, as is clear from the title, is about Michel d'Herbigny, whose mission to the USSR in 1926 was of a very different nature to Thuc's posting in Vietnam in 1938. The conversation reported in the book, as reproduced on your web page, is in regard to the 1926 motu proprio (d'Herbigny), not the 1938 one (Thuc). So, what does the book – which you obviously have purchased on Amazon or are about to – say specifically about Ngo Dinh Thuc? If nothing, which I suspect is the case, then it is not a reliable source for anything in the Ngo Dinh Thuc article. Do you accept that as a straight answer? Scolaire (talk) 09:27, 27 February 2019 (UTC)

It is not my website, and I don't have or plan to buy the book. The quote shows what special powers a pope gives to Bishops who were dealing with Communists. Perhaps you don't really know about the essential needs of a Bishop who already cannot, or likely may not, be able to access the Holy See for permissions. Those permissions are rescinded so a Bishop doesn't have to contact Rome for them. They are very few and common essentials. Perhaps you don't know about the history of this? Diligens (talk) 11:44, 27 February 2019 (UTC)Diligens

Who says the quote shows what special powers a pope gives to bishops who were dealing with communists? Not Lesourd, apparently, since you don't have or plan to buy the book. Not the web page (I only called it "your" web page because you cited it at the start of this discussion), which doesn't say anything about the pope asking Thuc to "deal with communists". And by the way, communists weren't in control of Vinh Long for nearly 40 years after Thuc was posted there, and they weren't in control of any part of Indochina in 1938; the French were in control, and France is a Catholic country. If it's you saying it, then it's original research. Now, I said I would continue to engage with you as long as it doesn't start going round in circles. If you don't produce a reliable, published secondary source to back up your absurd claim that Pope Pius granted Thuc "papal powers", I will not be commenting further. Scolaire (talk) 13:12, 27 February 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for the discussion. It was valuable, and I know where to go from here. However, the claim that this Bishop might have been given the permission to consecrate other bishops without papal mandate, is certainly not "absurd". Diligens (talk) 22:05, 27 February 2019 (UTC)Diligens

FWIW, there is a biography of +Thuc published some time ago by Fr. Terence Fulham, which also makes the claim of papal powers. Not sure if it would count as a "reliable source" or not, nor do I know where one can obtain a copy today. Anonymous, 6 May 2020 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.190.236.205 (talk) 17:53, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

CMRI

@Homeaccount: The CMRI is a random religious community, not a reliable source. They are not qualified to talk about history in general or this person's biography

Depite your claim, this blog post on the CMRI's website was never published by the Oxford University Press. It was first published by the CMRI itself in one of its magazines. Veverve (talk) 22:23, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

I am sitting with my copy of Death of a Generation: how the assassinations of Diem and JFK prolonged the Vietnam War by Oxford University Press. I included the page numbers. ~HomeAcc — Preceding unsigned comment added by Homeaccount (talk • contribs) 22:28, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

@Homeaccount: Death of a Generation is a reliable source, I have no intention of removing it or its information. But this is not the ref I am talking about; the ref I consider unreliable is this one. Could it be a quid pro quo? Veverve (talk) 22:43, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

"Thuc" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Thuc has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 March 4 § Thuc until a consensus is reached. Utopes _{(talk / cont)} 05:34, 4 March 2024 (UTC)